Soul & Science
Soul & Science

Season 1, Episode · 3 months ago

S1 Episode 13: Lockstep Ventures Founder Bonin Bough | If You’re Not Early, You’re Late


Bonin Bough’s first flare of marketing genius came at the age of 12, when the executive who would later set the pace for big brands entering online and social channels, launched a magazine in the NYC Public Schools. In college, the physics major built websites for brands, and one millennium-era internet party later, he joked, the vodka fountain and shrimp boat steered him into a marketing career. Bonin built internet practices at two global PR firms, then became the client and a prodder of global CPG companies, like PepsiCo, Mondelez and Kraft, to be digital innovators. You might recall him from the CNBC show, Cleveland Hustles, with LeBron James. And, as Founder of Lockstep Ventures he tackles systemic issues by helping Black founders create scalable businesses that also support their communities. Ventures, which tackles systemic issues by helping Black founders create scalable businesses that also support their communities.

In this episode you’ll learn:

  • Pack the pipeline, because the ingrained corporate response is to kill what is new, but they can’t kill it all.
  • Babe Ruth called his shots, name your next win, because external pressure will help make it happen.
  • “Marketers are like roaches”, they’ll infiltrate what you thought was a safe space.
  • Jump in early, ride the bull, first runners have a better shot at winning.
  • To learn something new, walk the outer trade-show booths on closing day, talk to everyone at the mixer.  

Thank you, Bonin, for joining me. Give it a listen, and fast forward your marketing mind in about 20 minutes.Presented by Mekanism 

I'm Jason Harris. You're listening to soul and science. Fast Forward Your Marketing Mind and about twenty minutes. If you like our show, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, review and share on apple, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us across social platforms at mechanism. Welcome to the PODCAST. Today I'm joined by Bondo boat, Co founder of lockstepth ventures. As one of the youngest c suite executives at a fortune, fifty company, bond it is worth billion dollars, CPG brands, including Bondelie and PepsiCo, before starting bonding ventures, a growth accelerator that helps businesses of all shapes and sizes, achieved revenue growth faster than they ever believe us. Bondon has been responsible for some of the most successful organization transformations and the rapid growth some of the world's most loved billion dollar brands, including Oreo. I'm sure everyone's seen his work on Oreo, cadberry, Pepsi, definitely Gatorade and fret away. During his time as chief media officer Mondolouse International, bonding managed over three billion dollars in medias bend, making the seventh largest media buyer in the entire these hell brands like sour patch kids become the fastest growing candy branded the world. Found consistently at the forefront of thinking and execution in innovation, bondons recognizes one of the business hottest stars and one of the industry's top mobile marketings. He's been abducted in the Advertising Hall of achievement. We can also be found in this such as fortunes, forty under, forty fast companies, a hundred most created people and business, Ebony's power, one hundred and the internationalist, internationalist of the year. Thanks for joining us, bond and. We are excited to chat with you and we are going to talk today about an overall theme. Whenever I think of you, I always think of if you're not early, you're late. So let's dive right in. Thanks for joining me today. Well, Hey man, thank you for having me. I always like to start with before you got there. How did you get started in the world of marketing and technology? When I was young, I got lucky enough that my parents found a way to get me in computer. In fact, I had the first twelve k Mac, one of the very first ones off the line. Actually oddly so. I kind of learned at a young age. I kind of use computers and did programming. I actually started a magazine that went through the New York City Public Schools when I was twelve. It was called what Washington night's action team. So I was always into computers. Learned how to program at a young age. But then I kind of decided I was going to do something more important in my life and I was going to go into physics and political science because I want to do engineering law and that's what I went to college for. But during college, with my college roommate, we needed some extra money, so we started a web company. We did a bunch of websites through the the Georda website, the George Ashla working play. So go runs through my mind. I ended up falling in love with political philosophy. I was supposed to come out and do a graduate program at Columbia. I graduated. We sold that company in College, which, you know, what pennies on the dollar, and that summer I decide to freelance program because I'd nothing to do, figure to make a little bit more money, and I was at like Proxycom razorfish and I went to a Internet party and there was a vodka fountain in a shrimp boat and I said this is the life for me, and so I ended up led. They had a independent which was router Finn. At the time. It's what still is, but ruter Finn, and they wanted us to start an interactive group, and so we built routofinn interactive. And what was interesting is in night what was that was that a PR company. So they were the largest independent PR agency at the time. Tech for PR is different than what we had built at routofin interactive. We had built a pure play interactive group that went up against R GA razorfish. What happened was all these guys collapsed and we had done a lot of pharmaceutical work. We were at one point in time the largest crater or pharmaceutical intranets in the world, which is...

...crazy, and so we picked up all this work and so we ended up becoming a pretty pure play interactive group that happened to be attached to a PR agency and that was great. The best thing was my my boss didn't want to travel. I traveled and pitched around the world, opened up our San Francisco what agency, our office, our Asia Office, a Europe office at a very young age. So I had a chance to track. How old were you at the time? I Guess I was like twenty three, twenty four D and twenty five. So look, we built root of an interactive I left there after seven years. I loved it, every minute of it, but I wanted to take the top slot and I ended up going to IPG, where I then was part of the investment group, and so we did like the first investment in my hold code and to like facebook. But I also ran Weber Sham wicks interactive groups. I built Weber Sham Wicks Interactive Group from twenty people to maybe two hundred and eighty in the two years I was there. And then I left there because I th aw clients were too dumb to buy good work and I became a dumb client. So I went over to Pepsi. But during that time, even in PR, I tried to create things I had never been created. If you go to Asia you'll hear a word called EPR, and that actually we started at root or fin, because the whole idea was okay. If Google is the front of a new stand, the singular goal for a PR agency is to be in every single magazine on a new stand. So how can we create something that we could get on every single search result in Google? And at that time it was like mom and pop. So if you search for, like pariasis, you get a bunch of mom and pop blogs, maybe a couple of websites, because these are early days. So we built out all these content pieces that we within pitch to these mom and pop blogs that had no way to build it, and we would get our clients on all the front pages and we called that our EPR strategy and that we kind of traveled that around the world. Anyway, that was before Seo was really a thing. Having started as an entrepreneur, starting different divisions and departments and other agencies and then going client side, what do you think the biggest difference is from agency to clients? You Shit Rolls Downhill Right, so the agency get the the brunt of it. But I used to treat our group inside of both Pepsico and Mande leads, because I always ran central groups, you know, so it was different than than actually running the core brand, and so we always treated the way we approach the world like an agency. I think the most important thing is that what comes from agency thinking, like I always think about pitches keep you sharper than anything else in the world. It's like napalm in the morning, like you're constantly that's what I loved about it. You're constantly on a different industry, you're constantly thinking about the problems differently because you're constantly faced with those and so we would try to do that. We would try to work on as many brands as we could. We try to tackle as many different challenges as we could. I think that the difference is that you tend to maybe work in a very focused area, but I think when you have global rolls your you're operating very similarly how you operate an agency. So my experience on the client side, the only difference is that you get invite it to more parties. But yeah, that's sure. And the variety pack of agency life and you have like five days to solve a problem because you have to go present it. That does keep you sharp. But but the way you've set it up is you kind of get a lot of different brands if you're working in a centralized way right, and I work almost the globe, so I worked in multiple countries. So there was never a dull moment. I think the hardest thing for the global roles is that you have to realize that you're not command and control. But in an agency you're not really command and control. You're always an influence mode. You can't just make the decision. You have to get other people to believe that it's their decision or that they believe it's the right decision, which means you have to really have thought through a lot of stuff and make sure it's kind of bulletproof. So I think that that kept as sharp as well. But what was interesting about the client side is that the scale, if you're operating at the kind of scale of a pepsico and a mandolas like, you can have the impact that you see or you know you can get off an airplane anywhere in the world and see...

...your work and that's something really, really special, and you have the ability to move the world forward. You know, I think when I went over to Pepsico, my singular goal was to say yes to do the things that we knew on the agency side the client should be doing, so that there could be a role model in the market place, so that other brand marketers who are or other agencies could point to. The work that PepsiCo is doing is the beacon of kind of I wanted to be the leader in digital, which meant that we have to take a lot of risks and a lot of chances, but we paved the way for a lot of people to get a lot of stuff done. Did you find any friction when you went to maybe more conservative client and the way they're used to doing business and you kind of come in with your entrepreneurial spirit when you have to name places? But just in general, what was that like? So this tension everywhere, there's always friction like but I think it's a couple of things. I think that you got to focus on one. I believe in the whack of Mole theory, so I think you got to put a lot of stuff into the market so that people, you know, can't kill it all because, like the immid it thought is to kill innovation because it doesn't look like what they know. So if your focus on the only one thing and you spent nine months doing that and then all of a sudden his killed, you just wasted nine months. Right. So I tried to spin a lot of plates, man like you know, a lot of different things and then the other thing is you got to make sure that you find you know, I talk about it as collision of the willing, but even if it's one person, you know, on that idea, you got to find the people. You can't get alignment. I think that's the challenge. People want to alignment. You can't even get a lineman and like where to sit people at things giving so to think a hundred, tenzero organization is going to get aligne and it's just crazy, you know. But if you can find the for the one or four people that are going to walk barefoot with you and turn this into a religion, then you can win. And then I think no idea is too small if it has the opportunity directionally be big. Like if you want to go into mobile, you can either try what we got lucky as we shifted ten percent and I put a big goal out there, but we were much further along, or you can get a couple of wins on the board, which is what we really did. If you look at the journey of Oreo, Orel started off where we were going to do the same exact we did. Actually a bunch of the same exact as oreo twist. They can dunk Mommy Kid. The challenge with that is that we had reached every six to twelve year old right everybody who owned a six to twelve year old, and there was no relevance on the top side. So we couldn't grow. But it took us to build wins, like we had to win on that first social campaign, then we had to win on the twitter campaign. Then we know and eventually we transform the whole business to the point where by the time we got three year is in, we were accelerating that business so quickly. I mean we launch personalized oreos in three months. Man. It was crazy because the org had been on the journey with us and they built the belief system and a trust system. More importantly, the organization built muscle memory. So the organization used to think that it was them and not even you know us. The other piece I try to use is I call it the Babe Ruth principle. The thing that was beautiful about Babe Ruth he will call his shots. Most people like I don't want to talk to the rest of the world until I've accomplished something. I'm like, no, dude, I'm going to call the shot. In the funny thing is he didn't hit all of the ones he called, but when he did, people were like but more important he told the world is what he was going to do in the world expected him. And so that when you tell the external world, Hey, we're going to reinvent the way that you know digital shelving works, the rest of the organization feels compelled to have to run towards that because the world believes that that's what they're going to accomplish. So you used external pressure to drive internal change. And then I think the last piece is we tried to build mechanisms that we called an entrepreneurship. I think we coined it originally. Everybody uses an now, but we tried to build mechanisms like Pepsico, ten mobile futures that put structure around innovation so that everybody could be in the innovation game and have guard rail so it didn't go off the you know rail. So they felt comfortable doing it, but at the same time we were structuring for the highest likelihood of successful return. I think one of your greatest strengths is finding trends early, like I remember four square SMS Marketing Thriller, which we ended up...

...doing a partnership with you on and we've heard you say it's that if it's standardized, it's commoditized, and that really means when you're waiting for something to be standard and adopted, it's too late to make a splash because everyone's already on it. How you think about finding trends and what passes the bonding test for something that you're gonna go all in on? There's a couple pieces. One is you got to find a way to have inputs, that constant inputs, you know what I mean? Like for me, the easiest way has always been speaking, because what I'm able to do is I come off stage and everybody's got an idea for me, and so I'm hearing and like people always like wow, you stood here and listen to every single person. I'm like, are you kidding me? This is gold man like. They think they're getting something for me. I'm hearing exactly. So I get to hear like where are the what are what are the kind of common themes that are breaking through? And then I think there's a little bit of pattern recognition, because you can say what you want. Marketers are going to find out they're like roaches. Whatever space you think is, say space, we're going to infiltrate. Now the good news is there's a lot of guard real so they're going to do it in a very, you know, protected way. But for me it's always jump in as early as you can and ride the bull because ultimately those that are their first are ultimately going to usually have a better shot at winning. Even when we did the D printed Oreo, people like, Oh my God, how did you know? But D printing was already big before I just decided to do with food. It wasn't like you know, but I saw the pattern recognition and moved and moved early. So I think that that's the real pieces. You have to build that pattern recognition muscle memory and then you got to build a way to get high through put, like how can you? That's why the cees is and all those things. The funny thing is with CS, everybody goes there and they take the tours. I can't wait until everybody leaves, and it does last two days or last day, and I walk all the back of the floor, all the tiny little boobs, all the guys that are still around until the end because they're just hoping somebody will buy their their kind little innovation, because I want to see all that stuff, and I spend the whole day doing that, the place where nobody's searching for stuff, where I'm looking for okay, what's sitting in that next but to me that's the way I put input, input, input, input. So I think that those are the two big pieces. Even with that, you know, look where nobody is looking. You still have to filter the cream. Tell me more about how you determine. Like, this isn't your gut, like you just know this thing's going to pop. You can tell when you've heard it. Like I've heard a permeation of a lot of stuff before. So if I've heard a permeation of it and it and already I didn't think that there was something quite there yet, then you know, I'm kind of like, okay, I get it. It's a better widget, you know, it's a better horse, it's not a car. Yeah, so how do you you know, you've got your hands and so many things. How do you allocate where you're going to put your time, money and effort? And I know this is going to sound Cliche, but I guess you get to a point in your career where you're like okay, what am I really going to do next? Right, and I think you everybody begins to kind of think more maybe impact driven, but I didn't really know that that was even going to be a part of my mindset. And then, of course all the George Floyd stuff happened. But two things that really happened in that situation was we had just finished digitizing my dad's work, half a million photographs. I had never been digitized in archived and I used to stand in the studio and I would look amongst this physical body of work and I realized that his work left the legacy in the world and it part of my job is to make sure that that legacy is out, is known to the world, and that's something that the gallery that we are partnering with now is working on. But the whole idea of legacy like, well, what am I going to leave in the world? You know, there's a lot of adage articles, but you know what am I really going to leave? And then post George floor during that whole thing. Actually. So you know, we have riots that Thursday, things are are being broken into and I'm sitting here on Seventh Avenue and watching the protests and then the next day things are burning and I'm like, you know what, burn it down because I haven't seen him forty years. And I'm like, okay, I'm being cynical. And in Sunday a friends restaurant got broken into,...

...and so I'm like, okay, we can't burn down have my dad's photos in it. And then that Monday we're tear gassing people at DC and I'm just like, what is going black squares? I'm like what? So I'm sitting with my dad, who at this time is ninety three years old, and he said the same thing that I kind of cynically said, but he meant it. He said nothing ever changes, and in the back of my mind I was like, so this is a hundred years almost this man has been on this earth and in a hundred years he still feels like nothing ever changed. And so we end. Look, there has been change, I mean, but the biggest thing I can do is try to dedicate some portion of what I do to driving change. And I happen to get a phone call from Michael Lobe, who said, Gott it, I want to make some change. We got to do something. So we sit and talk. He's like look, I really want to figure out a way to invest in black founders and I said look, I think what we got to do is, if we create a fund, we need to focus it on real systemic issues. So lockstep was born and ideas really to focus on founders that otherwise, I don't have access to capital, that are not the ones on the coast but the ones in the middle, and that are focused on really four issues criminal justice reform, financial literacy, education reform and healthcare outcomes. First of all, a how do we create economically viable businesses? And the great thing about investing in entrepreneurs who otherwise have not been invested in but have built somewhat successful businesses is that they've been able to find ways to grow despite having no access to capital, but also finding the businesses that are tackling problems like, I use the example of Mikey likes it. So Mikey, mikey's ice cream. Some of you might know it. I mean like beyonce Jane, like I mean every it looks like it's like every artist knows his ice cream. He's done such an amazing job, but his story is pretty simple. He was formally incarcerated. He makes a joke, because everybody talks about thinking outside the box. I was just trying to get out of the box. And so he said, you know, when he came, when he when he got back, nobody would hire them. So he started an ice cream shop and then we started second one and then he realized that what he really wanted to do was create ice cream shops that were in areas where large prisons are, so we could accomplish you things. One so that he could give people a job when they come out, so they could have some access to some type of dollars, and then the second piece would make sure that they didn't go back to where they came from an absolutely no resources. So really what he's doing is attacking recidivism. So we look at that business and say, Hey, if we could turn that into the Ben and Jerry's of this generation, we might actually have impact on recidivism in way that many of these programs that are not driven by financial returns can't continuously have and won't have at scale like that's the one thing I learned. So Lockstep is dedicated the solving systomach issues by creating massively scalable, highly returning businesses that tackle those issues, and so for me that's the twenty percent time. Right. I want to look back and say, here's the twenty companies that we help get off the ground that had real impact on sy stomach issues that are challenging, you know, the community that I come from. And then, you know, the eighty percent time is really based on building group black which many of you up until recently, probably knew about my my relationship to it as a cofounder, but didn't realize that I am actually an operational role. So you know just the situation that was happening in media where everybody was making commitments to invest in Black Oh media, whether it's agencies or the brands. And at the end of the day, when you really look at the Black Oh media landscape, as we step back to look at it, you realize that it's highly nascent and there's about twenty five billion dollars that is being committed, but there's less than a billion dollars of inventory that's actually there, and you begin to realize that historically this is a category that has been underinvested in, that has been overpressure to have to, you know, deliver at lower cpms, to not have access to the rooms, not have access to technology, and so we decided that we had to fix this and group lacks soul. Mission is to change the equitable ownership of media and investment and really to invest in the pipeline and grow the next generation of black owned media companies. We see a world where just because we're black owned doesn't mean that we're black targeted. So we believe a Viacom can own bet then we should be able to own MTV.

We shouldn't have to limit ourselves to only thirteen percent of the market place, which we think is insanity, although the market place right now has kind of a little bit of a bias towards that. And Right now, today we are fifty fifty employees. We've been operating for a year. I'm chief strategy officer. We have a hundred fifty members. I remember when we first start our journey, while we have zero, I guess we had three, and now we have a hundred fifty members that are part of the collective. We have held our own up fronts, we partner meetings. I mean it's I've never seen a business grow this fast. We have commitments that we've announced from everybody from like PNG to group M and these are multi hundred million dollar commitments to invest over, you know, the course of the next three to five years to really change the landscape of how we see the world. But I think what we've done to build the black owned ecosystem in the last twelve months, I've never seen anything move at this pace, of this scale and our ambitions. We believe that we're going to be the NBC, the Black Own NBC of this generation and more than anything is that we are also in the business of bringing diverse voices into general market at scale. And people always said, and you've heard the adage, that it's one thing to be in front of the camera, it's another thing to be behind the camera. Well, the way I look at it, it's another thing to own the camera because at the end of the day, those that own that are the ones that actually make the decisions on the narratives that are showcased, you know, to society, and we know that those narrative shape how society sees the world. So I think the biggest legacy piece that we can live leave is to create a black owned media ecosystem and company that rivals any of the major players in the market place today that are also allowing for diverse stories across all diversities ethnicities to be told at the scale that they deserve to be told, so that we can begin to reshape the narrative that's in the world today to make sure that we have a more inclusive world as we move forward. I love it. I got goosebumps when we started talking about it. I never heard you so passionate about anything. What did you learn when you did Cleveland Hustles? What's something that you've learned from Lebron James Working with him? You know what I learned. So it's interesting. What I learned from Lebron James is that one person can have dramatic change on the world. You know I mean? I don't think people understand how much he's going to change a generation of students from his hometown. I mean the fact that he said, look, I will pay for college for every single student who reaches, you know, whatever x grade levels that are. He's going to change the complexion and talk about generational wealth, creation of the opportunity at generational wealth. He singlehandedly is going to do that and his combination in powers, the role model and the ability that to attract capital right and so those, those two pieces, are huge. So being able to do both of those is how you can enact real change. But I also learned small businesses are the lifeblood of this country and, quite frankly, of the world. Not only are they the largest employer, but they are the reason why our kids are safe, especially while, more importantly, not just small businesses but storefronts. Those are the streets they walk down. They change the tax complexion, they change policing. That is really what drives in the saddest thing is a eighty percent of small business to go out a business of the first eighteen months because they don't have access to capital and they don't know how to grow. So here is the most important engine of our economy, and yet we haven't provided them the tools to make sure that they can survive at a greater clip and a greater scale. And if we were to focus more on that small business ecosystem, I think we would see a totally different landscape. Well, Lebroad be part of your current and future venture. I mean, you know they're only a phone call away as always. All Right, I love that. All right. So, wrapping up here, do you think marketing lives more in the heart or the head, meaning do you make decisions based on, you know, your spighty sense, or do you make it based on I got to see the numbers in the data. I mean, you said it before. Its Art and science, right, but I think that you know the art is in being... to interpret the science. Some of the smartest marketers that I know are those, yeah, that look at the data but trust their gut. I also learned small steps. You can make big leaps by doing small steps. Say to the world what you're going to do and then you're going to end up having that external pressure will make make the thing happen. Marketers are like roaches. I've never heard that one before. I liked it. Find the I think using events and speaking to find the fresh ideas in the ideas where nobody's looking, because everyone's looking at the next thing that's about a pop. So you got to find the the next, next thing that's going to bother new, new, new, new, your you know, Lebron James, one person can have dramatic change and I love that your focus now on true impact, not just saying at the true impact and legacy. Two questions for you, not marketing related. Who are your role models? And what have they taught you and how they influence you? If so many role models, I mean you learn something from everybody, and you know, I've been lucky to have some of the best bosses in the world. I learned a ton from like Dana Anderson, for example. I've learned a ton from Gail Himan, Cathy Michael, I mean all the people who have worked I've learned a ton from the people who I work with. You know, I think right now I'm really enjoying two things. I'm enjoying as the collection for my dad is getting put together. It's just getting to learn even more about who he was. You know, the biggest thing about him was all the creativity in the world was great, but he was a craftsman like. He knew his tools and he learned and appreciate the craft of it and that allowed him to create great things. And I think sometimes we forget to take a moment and how hard it is to actually learn how to be good. You know, we want to jump to that phase, but it's you know, I watched my adage first role of film from roll zero to roll tenzero or whatever it is, and he would start off he was trying to shoot people. Eventually he did, right, but he was too scared to shoot people. So he would shoot like squirrels, and the first squirrel you're like, okay, so a squirrel, but by roll like sixty, because all he did was shoot squirrel after squirrel off to score. You like this is the best looking fucking squirrel. He is master the Squirrel. But yeah, mass or like a lamp post, like and you see throughout all of it, you see him taking a thing that he needs to learn and learn and literally focusing on the crafts, and that's all he ever talked about. The other thing, other role model, and I know this is going to sound weird, is by the time I was old enough to appreciate my mom FT, but my mom was a very jaded person by that time. They had separated, they had their life was just hard by the time I could appreciate my mom right, and so we didn't really have the best relationship, unfortunately, and I always thought to myself I would have a better relationship later on in life, like I always thought my dad was going to die first, then my mom, but I would have time with my mom, would figure it out, we would get there. And it didn't happen that way right life. Never does. But my dad, my mom was my dad's favorite model, and so I want my mom was young, my mom was early S and I'm watching my mom through the eyes of my dad. I'm just seeing my mom and how excited she was for the world, and we have all these archives of documents and writings of hers that I've never seen and now I'm like reading those. I'm just taking in like how powerful my mom was and you know, you begin to understand where you come from, and so those right now are kind of my two big role model just learning who they are and understanding where they are. So I can also appreciate that as I try to make my leap into parenthood. You know, I love this idea of learning where you came from through artifacts. It's so interesting to me. All right, last question. Do you have a favorite mantra or quote that guides you throughout, you know, your journey? In one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, I was interviewing for that rooter fin job and Michael Schubert, who still a good friend, creative director or I'm in the waiting room outside of his office and there is a Harvard Business Review there and I didn't even know what this was. I'm picking it up and I'm reading it. This is the old school one, when it used to have the table of constists on the outside. I'm like, Oh, this is fascinating stuff. I didn't know.

So I stick this in my backpack right and I'm like, okay, do the interview. Don't know if I'm gonna but I read this thing cover to cover and I'm fascinated by it. And there's one quote. I read an are and it was all around what is leadership look like? And there was a quote that said the mark of a great number one is where their number two goes to lead, and I've always taken that with me, which is true. Leaders make people who are better than them, and so whenever I think about have I accomplish anything, I always try to say, okay, a how am I making my team better than me? And then have the people who I've had the chance to work with have they gone on to do better things than I have, and I'm so proud that so many of them have. So I feel like I've done the best I could as a leader. But that's the quote that I always go back to, is make sure that you do at ever you can to make the people around you better than you. Well, thank you for sharing your encyclopedia like knowledge with us. It's been amazing and I have to say for you, I hope you stay this sharp until you're ninety three. I hope it runs in the family. You and are both been I'm just hoping, I'll say, the sharp until like two thousand and twenty three. But okay, thanks so much for listening to soul in science and we'll see you next week. Soul in science is a mechanism podcast produced by the amazing Frank Riscol, Ryan Tillingson, Tyler Nielsen, Emma Swanson, and we'll lead you blonsky. The show's edited by Daniel Forever, the theme music by Kyle Mary, and I'm your host, Jason Harris.

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